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How effective are vaccines for stopping the spread of Covid 19 globally?
#1
I was quite horrified yesterday, while listening to a BBC interview with Airport Directors, that it is still not certain whether when someone has the vaccine administered that that person can't pass on (shed) the virus.  I had been unaware (due to Government propaganda to get citizens to vaccinate) that a person who has had the vaccine shot, could still be infectious - Governments conveniently or on purpose leave this out of their propaganda speeches.  Governments don't even know exactly what the duration of the vaccine is.  And when it should be repeated. So I guess even if one is vaccinated it's even more important to still follow all of the health protocols for Covid 19, to prevent infection.

The Airport Director interview and discussion was about the lack of uniformity among countries for rules regarding Covid 19 air travel into countries.  Every country has different rules which makes airport administration for Covid 19 very problematic, confusing and costly to implement.

Bottom line for the vaccine is the vaccine is just to set the body up to fight the Corona Virus - the infection is still there and there is a chance it can be passed on.  It's not even perfectly predictable whether the vaccine is going to work for the particular individual as no two persons are the same.  There are always the exceptions to the rule. There is a chance the body could see the vaccine as a threat and fight the vaccine.   So now what about those exceptions to the rule - how would they know they are the exceptions - how would any one know?  And how infectious are individuals who have been vaccinated who are under the false impression they are OK because they were vaccinated against the virus?  And maybe they're not?  For me it would be logical it would make spread the virus more.
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#2
(01-17-2021, 01:16 PM)deanhills Wrote: I was quite horrified yesterday, while listening to a BBC interview with Airport Directors, that it is still not certain whether when someone has the vaccine administered that that person can't pass on (shed) the virus.  I had been unaware (due to Government propaganda to get citizens to vaccinate) that a person who has had the vaccine shot, could still be infectious - Governments conveniently or on purpose leave this out of their propaganda speeches.  Governments don't even know exactly what the duration of the vaccine is.  And when it should be repeated. So I guess even if one is vaccinated it's even more important to still follow all of the health protocols for Covid 19, to prevent infection.

The Airport Director interview and discussion was about the lack of uniformity among countries for rules regarding Covid 19 air travel into countries.  Every country has different rules which makes airport administration for Covid 19 very problematic, confusing and costly to implement.

Bottom line for the vaccine is the vaccine is just to set the body up to fight the Corona Virus - the infection is still there and there is a chance it can be passed on.  It's not even perfectly predictable whether the vaccine is going to work for the particular individual as no two persons are the same.  There are always the exceptions to the rule. There is a chance the body could see the vaccine as a threat and fight the vaccine.   So now what about those exceptions to the rule - how would they know they are the exceptions - how would any one know?  And how infectious are individuals who have been vaccinated who are under the false impression they are OK because they were vaccinated against the virus?  And maybe they're not? For me it would be logical it would make spread the virus more.

I saw this report too and I never took this into consideration until now. This pandemic is something the likes the modern world has never seen. My doctor has advised me to stay away from the vaccine until he can do more research with my Autoimmune condition and my mom who is a nurse is the same way.

Some light though: For those with small businesses in the United States, the EIDL Advance opens back up today, so we can apply for a grant to help our small businesses. There is not a clear time as to when the application opens, but I plan on keeping an eye on it.
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#3
Vaccination processes are still under observation and as early new breaks from experts that we need years to make a perfect thing and many many experiments, so as we are in experimental phases many many awkward things should be happens even if someone is fail in his research they make pioneer for COVID-19 to get herself more strong and unbeatable.
As we heard that COVID-19 is now diagnose in some animals too. that mean we are really in more danger. and if it is spread worldwide then we facing dearth/shortage of food.
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#4
(01-17-2021, 01:16 PM)deanhills Wrote: Bottom line for the vaccine is the vaccine is just to set the body up to fight the Corona Virus - the infection is still there and there is a chance it can be passed on.  It's not even perfectly predictable whether the vaccine is going to work for the particular individual as no two persons are the same.  There are always the exceptions to the rule. There is a chance the body could see the vaccine as a threat and fight the vaccine. 

Flu vaccine only has ~40% efficiency. The important part is to reduce the severe cases. When you get cold, it's not severe and you can get well in few days or weeks. You don't need to get to the hospital. Therefore the hospital can take care of other patient.

Even if the vaccine doesn't have too much efficiency, at least it reduces the severe cases. People can stay at home and they will get well on their own in few days.

(01-17-2021, 01:16 PM)deanhills Wrote: There is a chance the body could see the vaccine as a threat and fight the vaccine.  

The point of vaccine is actually to "replicate" the actual virus so your body can use that as "punching bag". But since some vaccine give live attenuated virus, it won't replicate the bad part of the virus in your body. So your body can take time as they want to fight the virus. Then your body will know which part of the virus to attack when the actual virus come into your body. So yes, your body will see it as a threat and fight the vaccine.
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#5
(01-18-2021, 09:45 AM)tiwil Wrote: Flu vaccine only has ~40% efficiency. The important part is to reduce the severe cases. When you get cold, it's not severe and you can get well in few days or weeks. You don't need to get to the hospital. Therefore the hospital can take care of other patient.

Even if the vaccine doesn't have too much efficiency, at least it reduces the severe cases. People can stay at home and they will get well on their own in few days.


The point of vaccine is actually to "replicate" the actual virus so your body can use that as "punching bag". But since some vaccine give live attenuated virus, it won't replicate the bad part of the virus in your body. So your body can take time as they want to fight the virus. Then your body will know which part of the virus to attack when the actual virus come into your body. So yes, your body will see it as a threat and fight the vaccine.

From what I understand with the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines, they do not contain the live virus. I believe they contain the spike protein which allows for our bodies to create antibodies against COVID, which who knows for how long we will retain the antibodies from this vaccine.
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#6
(01-18-2021, 02:52 PM)tbelldesignco Wrote: From what I understand with the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines, they do not contain the live virus. I believe they contain the spike protein which allows for our bodies to create antibodies against COVID, ...........

The vaccines from Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna are both mRNA-based, i.e. they contain the messenger-RNA (RiboNucleic Acid) of the Covid-19's 'spike' protein. When injected into the patient bodies will end up translated into the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein by our cells and, because its a 'foreign' protein, will trigger the sought-after immune response: meaning the generation of the adhoc Antibodies by the lymphocytes B and hoppefully also by lymphocytes T (for long-term memory.)

The corner-stone concept to be aware of here(/in Immunology) is that immunity is based on the fact that our body can distinguish between what's 'self' and what's a foreign body (/alien) based on a TAGging system called the MHC (Major Histocompatibility Complex.)

Covid-19's vaccines are of 4 types:
> mRNA-based (the case of Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna as mentioned above),
> adenovirus-based vector (which is the case of Oxford-AstraZeneca),
> Protein subunit vaccines (which is the case of Novavax and Chinese Academy of Sciences) and
> whole attenuated form of the virus itself (which is the case for the 2 Chinese vaccines: Sinopharm and SinoVar)
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#7
(01-19-2021, 06:12 AM)fChk Wrote: The vaccines from Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna are both mRNA-based, i.e. they contain the messenger-RNA (RiboNucleic Acid) of the Covid-19's 'spike' protein. When injected into the patient bodies will end up translated into the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein by our cells and, because its a 'foreign' protein, will trigger the sought-after immune response: ...

Thanks for your information @fChk. And all info by @fChk is correct. Pfizer and Moderna uses mRNA of the virus, this is a new "technology" invented. Well, everything, I believe, is the same as I described before, except our body will need to build up the virus themself, but not dangerous at all.

mRNA, like its name, is a messenger that contains information how our body should make something. Then our body make it, and detect it as a foreign protein. Then our body will make that newly created foreign protein as "punching bag" as I said before. Everything from that points remain the same. Our body will know which part to attack when it receives real virus.
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#8
(01-19-2021, 09:45 AM)tiwil Wrote: ...... mRNA, like its name, is a messenger that contains information how our body should make something. Then our body make it, and detect it as a foreign protein. Then our body will make that newly created foreign protein as "punching bag" as I said before. Everything from that points remain the same. Our body will know which part to attack when it receives real virus.


That leads me to re-think about the core question: how effective of this kind of mRNA-based Covid19 vaccines?

For example, it would take time for our bodies to create that SARS-CoV-2 spike protein on our own and then detect it as a foreign protein. And God knows how long this mechanism will be last for.

Now it seems more and more people in the U.S. have taken the vaccines but the number of inflected cases is still not dropping.


#9
(01-21-2021, 09:28 AM)tryp4vps Wrote: Now it seems more and more people in the U.S. have taken the vaccines but the number of inflected cases is still not dropping.

On top of this I've also heard that scientists aren't sure whether those who have taken the vaccines and are protected, can't infect others while the vaccine is creating anti-bodies that fight the virus. While they have the virus, and may be protected by the virus, they can still infect others. Hence maybe why infections are still increasing. Bottom line, because of not really having a handle on the virus that seems to have so many unknowns, and having to push vaccines through when there are still many unknowns, Governments should have been more than cautious in warning that all precautions still need to be taken until every one knows what the outcome of the vaccines will be. To a certain extent I still feel that this mass vaccination is a large trial test. They're still learning.
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#10
(01-17-2021, 01:16 PM)deanhills Wrote: Bottom line for the vaccine is the vaccine is just to set the body up to fight the Corona Virus - the infection is still there and there is a chance it can be passed on.

Indeed that's what a vaccine is supposed to do. It's supposed to help a human-being to be sensitized to a potential encounter with a pathogen for which we have a potent antigen that will help generates the adhoc Antibodies ( AB ) and hopefully the adhoc T4-Cells which will make the organism react much more quickly and efficiently when it detect those antigens circulating for a second time inside it.

For the SARS-CoV-2 all the current vaccines are based on the virus spike protein; meaning that in this case the virus spike protein is the antigen that will be flagged by the immune system and that will trigger a cascade of (complex) immune response that will end up killing any cell that has those spike protein on their membrane.

The last sentence of the quote (in red) may only be true if a vaccine is not effective (didn't generate a good response in that person) or during a very short period of time before the body completely eliminates the virus from within for a person adequately immunized against the virus; ie someone for which the vaccine has helped generating a strong immune response (meaning a decent among of AB and adequate T4-cells.)

My major point here is that vaccination is a kind of a 'voodoo science' because, although we know a great deal of things on our immune system processes nowadays at the cellular and molecular levels, we still lack a lot, especially at the holistic(/organism) level. Things that require multi-disciplinary competence that will explain why certain persons react adequately(/optimal response) to vaccine while others don't(/sub-optimal response) and while others over-react(/aggressive response) leading to adverse reactions leading to auto-immune diseases.. etc...


PS: Although my main field of expertise isn't in the Immunology discipline but I have studied it long enough at the graduate level to have a sound understanding of what's what, whatever is out there of publically available information.
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