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What do you mean by Quantum fluctuation?
#1
I've been wondering this since yesterday because I saw a Tedtalk video on YouTube explaining this. Now scientists believe that out of sheer nothingness, a big bang occurred. Now the main question is, how did the "bang" happen? If it is absolutely nothing, no dimensions, no energy, and nothing, how can energy be released at such a great amount that caused the formation of the universe?

Scientist says this happened because "randomly" a term named "Quantum fluctuation" happened which changed everything. I don't digest this. If it was "absolute nothingness", then how come "quantum" existed in nothingness? Nothingness means absolute null, nothing could have happened at any random event because there wouldn't be any chance for something to trigger the bang.


My other question is if scientists say "Energy can neither be created nor be destroyed", then how does big bang happen? I mean, the "bang" itself released such a huge amount of energy that the universe came into existence. If this is something that comes up as a question, then why is the statement "Energy can neither be created nor be destroyed" still valid? 

No, Google doesn't find me a satisfying answer to these questions.
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#2
I guess there's only a limit till which stuff can be explained through science, I am a firm believe in religion, which although has its own questions(such as who created God), but somewhat helps me understand the creation of the universe and Its purpose.
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#3
(09-21-2019, 01:32 PM)Honey Wrote:  I guess there's only a limit till which stuff can be explained through science, I am a firm believe in religion, which although has its own questions(such as who created God), but somewhat helps me understand the creation of the universe and Its purpose.

I totally agree about existence of God. However, I also believe in logic and without logic, I'm not ready to accept the fact. The reason why I believed in God is that I did find scientific reasons behind it.

But I don't think that this is our limit to understand. I mean, I know we, as a human, do have our own limit to imagine and raise questions but for this, as I already have raised the question, there must be a scientific answer too.

I would also like to request to put up answers as "religion" because I believe, what I have asked, has a scientific answer. I hope you understand.
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#4
Pretty much I agree with you @Manal. @Honey belief in God is something whereas deciphering there formation if the Universe is something totally unrelated. Not to suggest I am a disbeliever - but that doesn't mean blindly accepting anything and everything religion teaches. For me, honestly, religion is limited to developing the ethics of an individual, his behavior, his manners, overall his character. At least there is someone whom even the fearless fear (not concerning atheists).

Anyways, getting back to the topic and to @Manal's questions, just give a read to this. I somewhat agree with what the person had written (not completely of course, bcoz of obvious reasons). See I understand that a massive amount of energy was required according to Big Bang Theory, which cannot be quiet accounted for by the Law of Conservation of Mass. So let's make an otherwise argument, how about this - someday this Universe will get destroyed and the energy that releases will be equal to the former one. How about this? No one knows mainly because we've not been till date, able to think such that a satisfactory explanation is given for the same. Of course, maybe we're nearing it - who knows - maybe the next moment, maybe the next day, maybe ten years later, even ten trillion million years later, but the day will surely come. Let's wait, we're bound to get an explanation even if it is received at our end moments.

For your question regarding the origin of the Universe and where did the energy come from, probably this may be a little satisfactory rather than the others which suggest that the energy was powered by God's Divine light, which filled the Universe with sunshine and then he created Sun, land and the Earth. Then God must have zero weight and occupy zero space (Remember matter can't be created not destroyed ;-) ). Ponder on this, I think I've a point here, don't I?

Let others say what they've to, indeed you've triggered a good discussion @Manal, well done!

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#5
(09-21-2019, 01:19 PM)Manal Wrote:  ..... My other question is if scientists say "Energy can neither be created nor be destroyed", then how does big bang happen? I mean, the "bang" itself released such a huge amount of energy that the universe came into existence. If this is something that comes up as a question, then why is the statement "Energy can neither be created nor be destroyed" still valid? 


The theory of "Energy can neither be created nor be destroyed" applies only to "human-sized" world.

In quantum world, everything behaves differently than the human-sized world, and follows the so-called uncertainty principle. The uncertainty principle says the creation of particles out of nothing is possible. That is how the term quantum fluctuation comes from.
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#6
@tryp4vps: Are you speaking about Heisenberg's one? If so, that concerns the variation of momentum and position of a quantum particle and the uncertainty involved in the measurement of those. I don't think it has anything to do with energy generation out of nothing.

And even if it - or let's say other theories so, I'm afraid I'll still not agree. You see we uphold the Newton Mechanics to a certain extent due to experiments, but more importantly due to its relevance in our day-to-day life. However, Quantum Mechanics is to a large extent based on certain assumptions and otherwise too, purely on experimentation. We've never been able to independently obtain any, they're all derived be it Plank's constant, Rydberg's constant, Pauli's, Hund's, or anything such for that matter.

Ever wondered why couldn't we see any subatomic particle till date? No we didn't. So how come we're so sure about their behavior as much as we are regarding macro objects. Even that since experiments very well define and lay grounds for theories, still just give a thought to this - even orbitals are but probability of finding electrons, they don't have any boundary as such.

For sure, Bohr was proved wrong by Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, but that doesn't confirm the later was right altogether. How did Heisenberg conclude? Based on de Broglie's dual behavior of matter. There's no end to this chain and can't be until an independent proof is designed solely based on logic and no theories, nothing at all.

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#7
(09-21-2019, 03:10 PM)sohamb03 Wrote:  Pretty much I agree with you @Manal. @Honey belief in God is something whereas deciphering there formation if the Universe is something totally unrelated. Not to suggest I am a disbeliever - but that doesn't mean blindly accepting anything and everything religion teaches. For me, honestly, religion is limited to developing the ethics of an individual, his behavior, his manners, overall his character. At least there is someone whom even the fearless fear (not concerning atheists). 

Anyways, getting back to the topic and to @Manal's questions, just give a read to this. I somewhat agree with what the person had written (not completely of course, bcoz of obvious reasons). See I understand that a massive amount of energy was required according to Big Bang Theory, which cannot be quiet accounted for by the Law of Conservation of Mass. So let's make an otherwise argument, how about this - someday this Universe will get destroyed and the energy that releases will be equal to the former one. How about this? No one knows mainly because we've not been till date, able to think such that a satisfactory explanation is given for the same. Of course, maybe we're nearing it - who knows - maybe the next moment, maybe the next day, maybe ten years later, even ten trillion million years later, but the day will surely come. Let's wait, we're bound to get an explanation even if it is received at our end moments. 

For your question regarding the origin of the Universe and where did the energy come from, probably this may be a little satisfactory rather than the others which suggest that the energy was powered by God's Divine light, which filled the Universe with sunshine and then he created Sun, land and the Earth. Then God must have zero weight and occupy zero space (Remember matter can't be created not destroyed ;-) ). Ponder on this, I think I've a point here, don't I?

Let others say what they've to, indeed you've triggered a good discussion @Manal, well done!

Regards,

Thank you for your appreciation.

Well, none of the links you provided answers to my question. The main question is, what triggered the bang? I don't believe in randomness because randomness requires two or more particles/matter/entity to be in existence. If it was nothing before the universe, not even time, what could've triggered those particles? As scientists say, not even time existed before the bang. So if it was some particle, or even at the quantum level, the order of magnitude must've been something ie "1<0" for the time. But if time didn't exist, then what could've triggered those exotic particles that created a whole new universe with 5 fundamental forces, a bang, galaxies and etc. 

Now let's say something so random happened that caused bang(as what you said), a whole new universe came into existence. Let's be more "illogical", the bang was so strong that it created a space in ultimate nothingness which we now call as "universe". Okay, things came into existence. But how could the forces come into existence? I mean, if it was a bang, then how the fundamental powers came into existence? By "powers", I mean to say gravity, strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force, exactly 3 dimensions, atoms perfectly enough to create primary elements(not synthesized as it was made by humans), galaxies, stars, clusters, black hole strong enough to hold entire galaxies, solar winds, cosmic winds, radiations, solar system, planets perfectly lined, Earth, then a planet perfectly named "Theia" collided with Earth, making it to break apart and creating Moon that exactly revolves around the moon, Earth revolving around the sun perfectly enough to support life, first cell, then multi cells, then another asteroids collided with Earth, making it like a doom but still perfectly arranged that life continued post-impact... Following the collision, humans came into existence, humans so perfectly designed to reach modern era and be "Type I(or Type 1)" civilization that could be intelligent enough to make big machines, and many other things... Now coming to the present day, humans do think about their existence? 

Now talking about Heisenberg's principle of uncertainty... Nothing in the universe is certain and everything is made up of true randomness? right? Then how come it became so certain that "Humans" came into existence because of a bang that took for around 13.5 billion years ago... At a perfect time so that the planet supports life.

Now if you say all these things came out of "true randomness", please find me a logic in Heisenberg's principle who himself coined the true uncertainty. We're so perfectly arranged into an era of existence where we're able to question our own existence out of a bang? Nah, I don't believe in this. Find me logic and don't call it "random". 

Talking about God. No, God doesn't have any dimensional existence. It's true that "matter can neither be created nor be destroyed". But let me ask you one thing... If God were to be in our universe, then why would we call it "God"? We'd rather have given it a fine name of "Alien" but we, religious people, didn't. If God is affected by time, space or matter then he is not God!  

Time, space and matter are what we call a continuum. All of them have to come into existence at the same instant because if there were matter but no space, where would you put those matters?
If there were matter and space but no time, when would you put it? You cannot have the time or matter independently. They have to come into existence simultaneously.
With the due concept of my religion, here is the religious explanation(which might not seem direct to you because the contexts that were written in Qur'an was of its own type and in today's generation of science, it is represented in different contexts but same meaning if you dig it into logic and match it with modern era's contexts).

[Image: image.png]
Source

So you have time, space, the matter created a trinity of trinity there. Just for your better understanding, 

Time has 1.past 2.present 3.future.
Space has 1.Length, 2.Width, 3.Height. 
The matter has 1. Solid, 2.Liquid, 3.Gas

You have a trinity of trinity's created instantaneously. And the God who created them has to be outside of all his creations.
If he is limited by time, space or matter, he is not God! We'd better call him an alien.

Just for you to make it easy, the guy who created the computer wasn't a computer. He created the computer by being outside the computer. Because if he was inside the computer, how could he have created the computer? He obviously has to be outside the computer for the computer to be created.
God who created the universe is outside of the universe. He is above it, in it, through it. He is unaffected by it because he created it! 

So my dear friend, the concept of spiritual force cannot have any effect on the material body. So you'll have to explain to me things like emotions and love and hatred and envy and jealousy and rationality. I mean if your brain is just a random collection of chemicals that formed by chance over billions of years. How on Earth can you trust your own reasoning processes and thoughts that you think to be absolute? In fact, all scientific predictions that were made, the majority of it came out to be false and currently, those which are widely accepted may be false too! Your brain chemicals were created in a big bang billions of years ago, and those chemicals were created by the bang and that bang was created by God, then how can you trust your own thoughts and reasoning? 

Now your question might be, "Where did God come from?" assuming a limited God. And that's your problem! God is worship is not limited by time, space or matter. Now if I could fit the infinite God in my 1.6kg(approx) brain, he could not be worth worshipping and that's for certain! 
So that's the God I worship.

I hope my answer clarifies your question of God's existence and creation of Universe by religious matter. I know I might have been diverted by the topic but I decided to continue because you choose to put God into the discussion Smile.

I had to write it all in text because you seem to not have watched the video I linked in the previous discussion. Here is the link, again.


I know it's Christianity's point of view but it is more similar to Islamic one(since the Bible is one out of 4 holy books sent by Allah). Sorry, I think I shouldn't be religion-specific here Smile. I mentioned this video so that it doesn't raise any conflict about me being religion-specific while I mentioned both Islam and Christianity.
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#8
@Manal: So just got some respite after hours of practising Maths. Read your post and got sometime to really before dinner.

Yes; that's pretty much what I'd said, mainly bcoz I feel we both were rather inclined towards eliminating the religious elements from our arguments. True, to mention that of dimensions. I too feel if there's a God, He must be beyond the altogether scope of this Universe cuz is he's into this, it somewhat a part of it, then the very existence is him is questionable, cuz then what form was it in which he existed out of nothingness?

Getting back to our logical discussion again, I'd like to highlight that the points you mentioned are pretty much related to the ones I did. The ones not so - I'd rather talk about them.

Well your point about being in the creation was amazing, somehow I missed mentioning it during my previous post also. You see like the example you have, Babbage wasn't inside a computer when he made it. The world was still unknown to the computer before it's public release, but I've they did, can you compare the one invented that day to the one today in physical appearance and other properties? No way. That's also a proof that the people who improvised on the computer did so because they could think beyond the scope of the computer screen and it's hardware. The way it is done is but the result of human creativity.

But again coming back to the next point which you made - if the brain itself was triggered by the Bang, then how's it's thought process to be trusted? Well here's where it turns interesting. If it's not to be, there wouldn't be things around us today as they're are actually. The computer, the mobile, the furniture, the house you stay in, even the clothes you're wearing, the language your speak - nothing at all. But the fact remains that it does. Not the question arises how? Well things are complicated here. For an instance, give a thought to something, how would you think? Is it something you're preparing out of materials? Nope it's a flowing stream if things your know which are triggered when certain topic is highlighted and your brain gathers all these remote things together and forms your opinion on an organized way (varies from person to person).

Till date, scientists have only been able to discover and verify what's the brain made of, how it's different parts function and coordinate and such other biological aspects. We've suddenly come to the conclusion that the folds in the brain decide intelligence merely comparing a few guys in whose case it proved to be true.

But tell me a guy, who discovered how do we think and confirmed it? No one can, bcuz your brain can't decipher itself. That's it basically.

About the Bang, definitely there's something which is still unknown, something that couldn't turn out to be a fact even with multiple supports. What's it? No one knows, only time can tell. Better for us to wait until then. True that our discussions should continue as it leads to expression of various ideals, but it's also true that we must wait - till when? We have been waiting for so long. But the time isn't correct yet. Maybe another dimension of the Universe can provide us the answer we desire. Maybe something which was, is and will ever remain beyond human intelligence! Definitely possible. Saying so many things I'd like to highlight one last thing, rather a fact, that the answer we desire does definitely exist maybe in the dimension we live or in the forth one? But since it does, we're bound to come across it be what may!

Well just an offtopic to mention, I liked your disclaimer in your previous post as it eliminates any possibility of accusation of intolerance.

Regards,
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#9
(09-21-2019, 05:41 PM)sohamb03 Wrote:  @tryp4vps: Are you speaking about Heisenberg's one? If so, that concerns the variation of momentum and position of a quantum particle and the uncertainty involved in the measurement of those. I don't think it has anything to do with energy generation out of nothing.....


I think we are talking about the same Werner Heisenberg's uncertainty principle. But the uncertainty principle is not only about an uncertainty relation between momentum and position. It can also be an uncertainty relation between time and energy.

During a precise time interval, it is possible that energy (a.k.a particles) can be temporarily created out of an empty space (a.k.a out of nothing).

The idea is that although the total energy of the empty space is zero, transitions between energy creation and destruction can still occur. That is called fluctuations, or quantum fluctuations.
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#10
@tryp4vps: Yeah! I do agree with what you say, as I know that the Uncertainty Principle has various branches. But again these are derived (or induced) ones, based on the original one concerning position and momentum. If it'd have an independent proof without application of any of the previously defined laws, then your argument would definitely be valid.
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