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please stop saying or thinking that Chinese are more into exotic or uncooked food
#11
(04-20-2020, 07:30 AM)youssefbasha Wrote:  I myself dont blame china/Chinese for anything but yeah there is People who do this of course you cant tell every single person not to blame china but i have a small comment here
Yes there is much but they will only remember the main reason of CoVID 19 which is only known to come from bats.
I hope this comment doesn't get removed because i really want to know how more how covid was created, is it because of the bats really or its just a word to blame china?

I don't think it has to do with "exotic", but with the poor sanitary conditions of the markets where the virus started to spread.  There was no proper supervision of the state of hygiene in the overly congested markets.  China already had lessons from SARS to watch their market standards of hygiene.  However they still continued with the bad standard of hygiene.  The virus has already been there, however it was the poor hygienic conditions of cramped and congested animals in cages that made it spread.  Whether China was responsible for creating the virus there is no proof, but the way it managed it from Wuhan onwards, now that is definitely open for debate.  I think that's what the world will put China in the dock for.  Then after that the EU, for not responding fast enough to close their airports.

But yes, back to topic of discussion (sorry if I got a bit carried away here but I don't think it's as simple as just a virus), it's not the type of produce but the state of hygiene of the markets that I feel is the reason for the virus infecting human beings to the extent it had.  Also, and maybe China didn't realize it could happen, the fact that there was no immunity of the virus in human beings, made it into something that was 2.5 times more virulent and contagious than the common cold.  So let's hope that if China is indeed innocent in the virus originating, that it at least gets its produce markets cleaned up.  Like proper sanitary standards and health inspectors supervising. Otherwise maybe there are other viruses just waiting to happen.

What is so ironic for me is all of the heroism that goes to China for being so good in containing the virus in their own country, when in effect they were the ones ultimately responsible for the virus starting for what ever reason it started in Wuhan and allowing it to spread without immediate containment.
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#12
@youssefbasha

latest news from genetic material analysis of the virus is pointing towards pangolins. you can search Google for the papers.

the thing is corona virus is a family and some of their members often jump to other species and often onto humans. other virus family members do this too. due to mutations...

it is unfortunate that this is so contagious.

some saying it was created and or spread by some humans willingly - which some experts with clear scientific reasons doubt - but it can still be true. from critical thinking, it has a chance of being true, no matter how small....

i have read those reasons and to me they are rather solid and i don't believe it was created by humans. but it could still have been spread by humans. no idea and no proof for or against. but I'm not going to take any side without solid proof.

@deanhills

please don't support anything trump. if you want to give credit where it is due, then there are many many people who deserve your time a lot more than this.......arrrrrgh

he is the worst human on earth i think. and his blind supporters.

They say intelligent people don't talk in superlatives. but the label be damned.

he is hurting both usa and the world much more than anyone ever did singlehandedly.

now to your point of cheap and low quality. the hidden intention behind pushing for free market in other countries by the powers in West was just that. they had developed vast industries and automation and with huge production capacity. now they were sure about winning those foreign markets and that's why they pushed for it. now when their own market is being captured by china or Mexico or...., they are imposing more and more taxes on imports and other limits. in effect not keeping the market free. do you really believe those countries would have pushed for free market and capitalism no matter what !!??? i don't think you are that naive...

now, none is forcing the people in the West to buy the cheap goods. they have more money than us. or to depend on China. but business is about profit and it will always remain so or there will be no business. simple.....

they took so much from East, now it is time for payback. i would be happier for China if they had more freedom of speech. but i have this belief that to advance any higher, they will have to seriously improve things in China.

china has mastered the science and art of automation and high volume industry. it is not just an effect of cheap forced labour.

this Chinese = cheap low quality is another of those brainwashing efforts to discredit china. if you look carefully, you will find that most of those so called high quality products are also by China.

i read about what they are doing in Asia and China. that is sad. but again, if politicians become greedy and corrupt and hinder their own countrymen from setting up better industry and let Chinese invade , and the people choose these politicians again and again in spite of this, then i have to repeat that adage,...

people get the leaders they deserve...

same about India.... look at these morons.

finally i would like to say this, there is a proverb in Bengali which means,

the ones you leave behind and ignore, will pull you back down.

people don't see the long term dynamics of reality. Rich people think they will earn loads and move to someplace better. but the thing is those so called better places are full of people with similar attitude. so how good they can be together then...

we simply have to see why it is important to work together for eachother in the end or we will keep moving in circles ...

but i have this feeling that we will never really come together as humans. we will just evolve into different species, probably with the help of AI with a core of egoless transparent and open thought process that will lead into becoming units like borgs, but in a good way ( no need for assimilation of other living beings).

they ask why aliens don't visit us. i think when eventually we get to that level of power, we will no longer remain like this and visiting and or interacting with a species like us will become an utterly insignificant thing to even think about.

Note. i just noticed that i wrote 'finally' like ages ago. lol
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#13
Well, I agree with the points made here, I think I was wrong with the Youtube video that I watched, I tend to believe something from Youtube seeing those comments, I agree that the chinese people do not eat all this, may be the customers of Wuhan market are outsiders.
All these misconceptions are because of lack of media freedom in China. Since quora is the most trusted website I will link some responses.
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-state-...m-in-China
https://www.quora.com/Why-is-there-not-m...n-in-China
Now please think critically, why there is such biased views about China?
I doubt even people from Chinese Government may be writing articles for hiding the truth.


Thank you  Sweet



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#14
@Littlemaster

first of all, let me assure you that I'm not being compensated, directly or indirectly, by Chinese government, for writing all these. lol

sorry. hehe. bad joke..

anyways, here i would like to make some observations.

1) Quora is probably better moderated against fake news when compared to YouTube. But it certainly is not free of bias and in some cases, tries to avoid controversy at the cost of suppressing even valid opinions.

as an example, just write something negative about India. I'm sure you would find some negatives about India.there are huge number of Indians on quora, who will probably flock together in complaining against and usually succeed in removing it.

Quora is full of copy questions. and bad answers. many have left over these and other reasons. some went to write at other sites, like Medium.

it is not quora, but more the person's writing there and the content. only experience can guide you there.

2) i like individualism and freedom of speech and all the perks that come with them. so i never dream of settling in a place like china. even if that meant being financially better off. i put freedom over money any day.
but i must say i don't see much problems with how they are dealing with the Tibetans and Muslims and other religious fundamentalists in China. yes, i don't. any type of fundamentalism is much worse than the level of control china imposes on personal freedom. I will choose china over living in Iran, any day. it is not all oppression in China you know. there are many from other lands and even West, who move to China. much better living standards and financial condition. most of the population in China actually pretty happy with that. Or there would be much widespread discord, especially when so many Western countries are all for inspiring just that in China.

3) I don't think anyone around here is denying the possibility that the unhygienic wet markets in China might be responsible for this corona epidemic. it is where the wild meat and regular meat and live animals all get mixed up. this wild and regular and dead and live mixing and lack of health standards and hygiene is most probably responsible for the jump of this virus from some animal host body onto humans.

And the consumers are Chinese as well as may be other nationals who visit and go there.
but that does not mean china had ill intent. it could have been a case of another bad management that enabled the spread.

Though I am of the opinion that if everything remained the same except we changed the Chinese govt with most any other countries' govt, it would do much much worse at managing this. including usa and uk govt. just read past news about how they kept ignoring and later, blaming china for this. just read their responses against the timeline. read their related news headlines during that period. you will see for yourself.

also you must remember that this virus has a new weapon. infected persons become highly contagious even before symptoms show up and for longer durations ( longer incubation period and contagious during that period). yet others include its not so serious mortality and the existence of a big percentage of infected population as spreaders without symptoms.

4) read the page on zoonosis on Wikipedia. you will see many more such jumping incidents. these are big impact ones.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoonosis

just think .... with this big a human population on earth, how often it must be the case when we consider the jumps that are dead ends. which means jump of a new virus onto human host without the ability to spread successfully. it happens much more often.

now think about the complexity and time factor of detection and prediction. that's huge and international traffic and trades can't be efficiently regulated depending on that. cause, as mentioned there, detection and impact prediction is too imperfect yet. can't have things suspended everytime they find a new virus infecting humans. it is not that simple ...

it is like people shouting that dropping atomic bombs on japan by usa was wrong. some say .. why two when one could have been enough and all sorts of other arguments. well, war is wrong, killing is wrong. but when in war, people and countries end up doing horrible things. that can't be analysed with peacetime logic n decision making. it is not armchair debate. just read up all the horrible things Japanese did to those it occupied. no side had any lack of horrible doings. Wars are wrong.

it might be a bit similar in this case of corona and responsibility of China. it came from China, so they must be responsible and pay for the damage .... that's absurd claim. armchair arguments again.

bad wet markets are at many other places and countries. may be it is the huge populations in China and big landmass and diversity. may be something to do with the geographical position and something about the wild animal populations. it is not like it is consumed only in China.

there are many other wild animals who don't host so many bad agents like bats. even though bats mostly eat fruits and or insects. Read why and you will know.

We can certainly demand that they put more emphasis on this. but to claim that zoonosis happens more in China, we will have to undertake a scientific study where they must use statistical methods to include effects of huge population and others conditions.

say china has 50 bad criminals involved in international rings with impact on other countries, with a total population of 500 and nepal has 1 such with a population of 2. you can't really claim that china is prone to crime and the government there is responsible. You could certainly demand they do better job anytime though.
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#15
For me, I don't like comparing the evil deeds of someone to other evil deeds of others to make something right. Whoever doing bad things is responsible for their actions. China's responsibility for this matter was poor. Firstly the unhygienic market(Sorry to say it can't be neglected simply by saying such markets exist somewhere else, it is the responsibility of the government to take precautions). Also, look at the product items in the markets, recently some kinds of Bats seem to be the carriers of Viruses, the market contains it.

Now see, I am living in Kerala, I don't eat Bats or Dogs, I didn't see anyone eating these meats, now talking about eating worms, I don't, and I never see such people here in my place, now what is the validity of quora post while I don't have the experiences described in it. The quora post you posted is contradicted to my experience. Should I believe the facts provided by some post of an unknown author while I have the opposite experience? 
While thinking critically please take some valid arguments to make a conclusion. 
The argument one in the quora post, Set 1 comes from India is invalid in at least our locality. I am living in India. So the conclusion is wrong in my experience. I respectfully disagree with the quora post you have shared.


Thank you  Sweet



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#16
rudra Wrote:@deanhills

please don't support anything trump. if you want to give credit where it is due, then there are many many people who deserve your time a lot more than this.......arrrrrgh
Possibly you misread my post.  I don't support Trump as a person, but anything he does vs China to counter China's aggressive global power expansion I applaud fully and wholly.  

Also note, the media may portray him as the worst human, but for me you have to apply some critical thinking here too.  He may not have a nice image, but the results speak for themselves.  Prior to the Corona Virus the US was going through a boom period.  Whatever Trump does, he does for the US.  Right from the get go when Trump became President he had as his objective to lessen the power China has acquired to control the world economy and also the US economy.  Obama was too much of a softy.  To really counter the devil some times one has to have of the devil in yourself too.  He has proven he can stand his man against the most aggressive of world leaders the world has to offer.  Trump's way.  I don't like Trump, but I think his strategy has been effective for the US.  

rudra Wrote:now to your point of cheap and low quality. the hidden intention behind pushing for free market in other countries by the powers in West was just that. they had developed vast industries and automation and with huge production capacity. now they were sure about winning those foreign markets and that's why they pushed for it. now when their own market is being captured by china or Mexico or...., they are imposing more and more taxes on imports and other limits. in effect not keeping the market free. do you really believe those countries would have pushed for free market and capitalism no matter what !!??? i don't think you are that naive...

now, none is forcing the people in the West to buy the cheap goods. they have more money than us. or to depend on China. but business is about profit and it will always remain so or there will be no business. simple.....
So why is China then exporting both goods AND PEOPLE?  And those people being exported with the goods successfully populating the target countries - but not as immigrants - continuing to look after their own businesses and employing only their own people?  In other words neo-colonialism.  

China has as its main objective world domination.  And it has been very successfully conducting world economic warfare for a very long time.  You're right, those Western countries who allowed the dumping of cheap goods in their countries and used China to manufacture big labels cheaply are also to blame.  And are complicit in their own self destruction.  But if Trump does something to counter that economic expansion of China just a small percentage, I'm all for it.

I've just noticed on the news that Australia wants an investigation of China's role in the Corona virus outbreak.  Now that I applaud as well.  I also want to know exactly what the origin of the virus was, and why it wasn't contained properly at its source.

rudra Wrote:china has mastered the science and art of automation and high volume industry. it is not just an effect of cheap forced labour. this Chinese = cheap low quality is another of those brainwashing efforts to discredit china. if you look carefully, you will find that most of those so called high quality products are also by China.
I don't see China as a master of anything.  Its poor practices of mass production at the price of its environment and also at the price of the Chinese workers in those factories are very thoroughly documented every where.  It's a threat to the environment and to humanity.  And the plastic goods are creating a huge problem for every one.  I see no "master" in either allowing that mass production to happen, or Western countries embracing those cheap goods to their own detriment.

rudra Wrote:i read about what they are doing in Asia and China. that is sad. but again, if politicians become greedy and corrupt and hinder their own countrymen from setting up better industry and let Chinese invade , and the people choose these politicians again and again in spite of this, then i have to repeat that adage,...

people get the leaders they deserve...

same about India.... look at these morons.

finally i would like to say this, there is a proverb in Bengali which means,

the ones you leave behind and ignore, will pull you back down.

people don't see the long term dynamics of reality. Rich people think they will earn loads and move to someplace better. but the thing is those so called better places are full of people with similar attitude. so how good they can be together then...

we simply have to see why it is important to work together for eachother in the end or we will keep moving in circles ...

but i have this feeling that we will never really come together as humans. we will just evolve into different species, probably with the help of AI with a core of egoless transparent and open thought process that will lead into becoming units like borgs, but in a good way ( no need for assimilation of other living beings).

they ask why aliens don't visit us. i think when eventually we get to that level of power, we will no longer remain like this and visiting and or interacting with a species like us will become an utterly insignificant thing to even think about.

Note. i just noticed that i wrote 'finally' like ages ago. lol
For me all one has to do is look down history lane.  The survival of the fittest and the strongest.  The aggressive economic and neo-colonial type expansion of China is a fact.  Australia is also complaining about this. Check what's happening in Hong Kong.  China needs to have obstacles put in its way. Trump is a strong and fearless enough world leader to call China out on this and at least put some obstacles in its way.  For me Trump has done a lot to even out the balance by engaging the enemy, instead of dancing around them like Obama did. China is never to be underestimated.  Russia with Putin is also very strong.   Trump has the respect of the world's worst enemies.  I don't admire the man.  But he has done a lot to even out global power - it's not for the weak and the nimble - but for the strong and assertive. I know Putin has a regard for Trump, so he is not completely the idiot the media is trying to make out of him.  Guess even if one dislikes Trump, one has to give the devil his due - and apply critical thinking both ways with an open and inquiring mind.
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#17
(04-19-2020, 08:18 PM)rudra Wrote:  @fChk

awesome, man !! as they say, things worth learning can't be taught.
also, where it would be most worthwhile to teach, it becomes very impossible to do so.

there are some nice documentaries about critical thinking and what is happening around us from some enigmatic experts and activists. they don't peddle conspiracy theories. they encourage you to explain things yourself. that is how education should be.

given all the facts, you reach your own conclusions.

but the sad fact is,  at this age of internet, we are even more susceptible to propagandists and fake news.

only one weapon can be of serious help. clear and critical thinking with an open mind.

There is a BIG difference between Education in its true sense of the Word, ie Paideia and the current 'cheap schooling' dispensed under the disguise of Public/Private education.

Paidea is about 'deep Learning' which is, among other things, about developing critical thinking.. Cheap schooling is about degrees and filling up job applications to enter the Work market for some filthy big Corp. Huge difference in the Objectives and the Outcomes.

Not sure if you know a brilliant US intellectual/activist under the name of 'Cornel West'. Look it up on Youtube, he has many keyNote speeches videos up there on this very subject... You may like to hear them.


(04-20-2020, 06:20 AM)deanhills Wrote:  I'm all for China bashing myself presently.

I'm not!.. quite the contrary actually. And this is yet another topic that we've discussed at length @FFS. China, although has all the winning chips in its hand, can't overcome alone the current World order set by the West all the way back to the mid-15th century (Portuguese, Spaniards, Dutch, French, Brits and.. the US.)

But the strategic alliance between the BRICS countries + IRAN + Cuba + Venezuella etc.., CAN, if united and others join in. By the way, many countries want to do that but are not allowed by the US... I told you, no more sovereignty anywhere.

The 'B' in the BRICS is for Brazil which is out for the moment (as a result of US machinations in their internal politics.) the 'R' is for Russia, the 'I' is for India, the 'C' is for China and (Ironically) the 'S' in the BRICS is for South Africa!!..

China + India are already in the top 5 World economies by GDP and are projected to be the top 2 within this decade!... There you have it, as to why all the hatred in the Western media--Trump included (this guy to me is just a Clown(/a façade) but the share evil that's manipulating him from behind the curtain is just mind-boggling!)...

Finally seeing China as a 'colonial danger' doesn't even need to be addressed as long as the other aggressive players in the region, ie the neoliberal policies of the West in the region (huge IMF debt enslavement) AND the increasing US military presence didn't even ring a bell!.. At least China helps with developing some high-value infrastructure projects not with foreign-highly intrusive-military bases OR limiteless loans that just enrich the Mafia at-the-top to end-up in the same banks from where it came from, with largely 0(/ or near zero to be fair) impact on the ground.

I'm into History and I've studied it for a long long time (I used 2 adj to stress that's not in terms of years but decades) to make sense of our current situation World-wide and in our particular region (ie the Arab World.) China was never an aggressor to the neighbouring nations, at least not for the 3 well-documented millennia that I've scanned. But we were, and we've reached their western frontiers, as well as the rest of Western Asia. But the Mongols got their revenge later on, not the Chinese!..

It was the Chinese who taught us how to manufacture paper when the European were still sleeping in there 'Dark Ages'!..

So yes, I will take China as an ally any time.... But that doesn't mean that I approve what they are doing to their Uyghur population.
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#18
@fChk

awesome clarity and information there. at least someone really spends time to keep himself abreast of what's really happening out there. thanks.

i sometimes get so frustrated and start arguing like this. this thread was another such effort. but clearly it was a mistake. again. people who want truth will read all kinds of stuff and will know it already.

people who have more opinions and beliefs and less inclination to find out the truth, which sadly the most, will remain so. that's sad. this is the curse of knowing. the curse of knowledge. you will know things but you won't be able to do much. cause any doing will have to include most people and to include them you will have to be manipulative. just truth will not do for them. and that my friend is the same age old problem..... whether ends justify the means.

"He that complies against his will

Is of his own opinion still

Which he may adhere to, yet disown,

For reasons to himself best known"



i personally think China is doing the right thing with both Uighurs and Tibetans. India will lash even further behind just cause it is doing that wrongly. Anti muslim is very bad idea. sufism and many forms of muslim religion is awesome. unless China killing them off, which I hear they aren't. If you go soft now and allow that much diversity and free speech and work, it will eventually bite you and much harder. European progressive countries will eventually seriously suffer from it, including Germany. for letting so many refugees in but not somehow making them adapt fast, but allowing them to keep to their own group and thoughts. so it is much better to force them to a model citizen behaviour......you keep your religious belief to yourself and no intolerance.

And Wahhabi way of thinking, this singular all exclusive idea of God, this monotheistic form, is the worst of all the religious forms. i am extremely against them. you can say militantly against. hard forms of socialism or Marxism is not this bad. I'm less antagonistic to them.

@deanhills

trump is doing one and probably only one thing with efficiency. destroying the fundamental tenets of true democracy and accelerating the destruction of the influence of America, which sadly also damaging the huge good side of the USA too. The rest is just distraction.
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#19
(04-22-2020, 08:28 AM)rudra Wrote:  @fChk
(...)

i personally think China is doing the right thing with both Uighurs and Tibetans. India will lash even further behind just cause it is doing that wrongly. Anti muslim is very bad idea. sufism and many forms of muslim religion is awesome. unless China killing them off, which I hear they aren't. If you go soft now and allow that much diversity and free speech and work, it will eventually bite you and much harder. European progressive countries will eventually seriously suffer from it, including Germany. for letting so many refugees in but not somehow making them adapt fast, but allowing them to keep to their own group and thoughts. so it is much better to force them to a model citizen behaviour......you keep your religious belief to yourself and no intolerance.

And Wahhabi way of thinking, this singular all exclusive idea of God, this monotheistic form, is the worst of all the religious forms. i am extremely against them. you can say militantly against. hard forms of socialism or Marxism is not this bad. I'm less antagonistic to them.

To discuss those views, you need to open their own independent topics :-)

BUT, quickly anyway, Wahhabism is the ideology that allowed the Al-Saoud to slowly (starting in mid-18th century) get hold of most of the Arabian Peninsula, after the Ottoman empire collapsed. But it was the Brits who tipped the scale in their favour -early 20th century- in exchange of turning a blind eye on what was happening in Palestine at that time!!!...

In that perspective, Wahhabism had/has always strong allies in the West!!!! The US supplanted the Brits, but that alliance did only grow stronger.... till 9/11...

Since that date Al-Saoud's house was under pressure to do something about that... so they complied; the result is what we are witnessing today inside S.Arabia... So, are you paying attention to that ?.. I guess not!

It's all about politics!... as always!..
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#20
@fChk

thanks. succinct !

it's all politics. and as expected, you lie with a snake and you get bitten eventually. but then those profit minded politicians are all snakes. they will resort to any -ism that enables them to do what they already want to.

i was talking about philosophical n spiritual matters. i also agree that most common people in any religion don't even know or think and discuss about the basics of their religion. they are quick to anger if you make any comment on there religion, claiming that their belief is all the authority they need. thats a common vice of people of any ism.

but i should not discuss this here any further.

thanks
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