[Sn1F3rt]

Well it's very childish to still ... and yeah still play this blame game after almost a year of the outbreak of the pandemic. There are certain events which hint towards China producing and circulating the virus however no one can affirm that without a solid proof. Yes there are events which even hint that the Russia or the US might have done this. You know, false news never stops flying ... but what I think is that we've to think differently, stop this attitude of pinpointing faults and instead focus on how we can restore our normal lives.

You see we lost so many souls throughout the pandemic, to speak figures we've lost over two million lives. Regardless of who made the virus, those people who lost their lives were innocent. How is this justified then? But what can we do either, blaming each other only does more harm than good. Is it of any use to create a war like situation and shred even more lives ... I think no.

[mzltest]

Well it's very childish to still ... and yeah still play this blame game after almost a year of the outbreak of the pandemic. There are certain events which hint towards China producing and circulating the virus however no one can affirm that without a solid proof. Yes there are events which even hint that the Russia or the US might have done this. You know, false news never stops flying ... but what I think is that we've to think differently, stop this attitude of pinpointing faults and instead focus on how we can restore our normal lives.

You see we lost so many souls throughout the pandemic, to speak figures we've lost over two million lives. Regardless of who made the virus, those people who lost their lives were innocent. How is this justified then? But what can we do either, blaming each other only does more harm than good. Is it of any use to create a war like situation and shred even more lives ... I think no.

Yeah.Just joking:We might have made the happening "Plague Inc. - Cure Mode" much easier if we put all of our effort into how to cure this epidemic.(Please forget may bad Chinese-English)

Blaming other countries is the politician's job rather than we ordinary peoples'.They do it for their profit regardless the truth - even we are unable to reveal the truth now.

Vaccines are in process - these guys insisting that this virus comes from a certain country and infering the purpose surely does NOT engage in the vaccine development or virus analysis.

Conspiracy can not stop Covid,but science can.

Many people here are encouraged to stay at their home rather than reunioning together for Spring Festival.Well, I guess some critics will say this violates the freedom right.But if you are going to expose to the danger,will you consider your "freedom"?

Sorry for my bad English

[deanhills]

Yeah.Just joking:We might have made the happening "Plague Inc. - Cure Mode" much easier if we put all of our effort into how to cure this epidemic.(Please forget may bad Chinese-English)

Blaming other countries is the politician's job rather than we ordinary peoples'.They do it for their profit regardless the truth - even we are unable to reveal the truth now.

It's not a blame game among Governments presently.  Last I saw the head lines I battle to see anything on "where Covid-19 started".  Topics we see are mostly on vaccines, and how to get them.  I'd say  all efforts of Governments presently are focused on getting rid of the virus.  I don't see big articles about blaming any one.  Governments are presently fighting one another for access to vaccines - I guess the investigations will catch head lines once Covid 19 is under control again.

However, if one looks at investigating where CASE ZERO started, definitely Hunan, China will be included in the investigation.
Logically so. France is also mentioned, but not to the same extent as Hunan. And there was an early case that started in Seattle, Washington, US. So if scientists and Governments are investigating in the background, that would be a very logical and no-brainer place to include in the investigations.  Not as a blame game.  But because there were real cases in Hunan, China.  You can't laugh that away.

BTW one can only BLAME something when a theory has been proven.  Possibly you find blame in low quality blogs or discussion groups, but in more serious scientific literature, no country has been blamed yet.  Only theories explored.  Logically so. The virus had to start somewhere.  Where did it start?  That is a very logical question to ask.

Also note that there are two separate avenues for investigation.  The first avenue is trying to find CASE ZERO.  The second Avenue is pointing at China's attempts to hush the virus up in Hunan in its beginning phases, in cahoots with the World Health Organisation who failed to inform other countries of the seriousness of the virus when the WHO knew how serious it was. Both are seen as guilty by other major European countries and the US and that was also the main reason why Trump wanted to withdraw US membership from the WHO. The WHO and China "hushing" the virus in Hunan for as many months as they had was one of the major factors that helped spread the virus much more virulent than it should have to Europe, so that is another situation that no doubt is being investigated seriously. Once Covid 19 is under control, I can imagine Governments will get together to create investigation teams, if they haven't done so already.  And China and the WHO will have lots of explaining to do. I guess this is when the real lying and denying games will begin and the "truth" that people like you and me will hear will no doubt be "truth" that countries have negotiated with one another. I'm very cynical that we will ever get to know the real truth where the virus started.

[Sn1F3rt]

Yeah.Just joking:We might have made the happening "Plague Inc. - Cure Mode" much easier if we put all of our effort into how to cure this epidemic.(Please forget may bad Chinese-English)

Blaming other countries is the politician's job rather than we ordinary peoples'.They do it for their profit regardless the truth - even we are unable to reveal the truth now.

Vaccines are in process - these guys insisting that this virus comes from a certain country and infering the purpose surely does NOT engage in the vaccine development or virus analysis.

Conspiracy can not stop Covid,but science can.

Many people here are encouraged to stay at their home rather than reunioning together for Spring Festival.Well, I guess some critics will say this violates the freedom right.But if you are going to expose to the danger,will you consider your "freedom"?

Sorry for my bad English

I agree. This is one of those few things politicians do when their seat is in danger. Over the last few years there have been numerous such incidents, take the pulwama terrorist attack. It happened just after a rage of anger started in the country when demonetization was done. And such other incidents each time some fault is found with the politicians and people get distracted. So are they telling us that everything is a co-incidence? Half of these things are pre-planned, people get distracted and politicians get away with their deeds.

The situation of COVID itself is being misused in our country. Prices of literally every thing went up and now that things are back to normal, there's no scene of a decrement. Only the premium trains are being operated in the country at elevated fare, no food, bed-rolls and whatever used to be provided prior to the pandemic. What the heck? This is mere profit making, if you say that the prices are being increased to recoup railway losses, how does it profit you to not operate the other trains, thousands of them.

This is just one of those things, it's corruption everywhere in the name of the pandemic, and now it's a new fashion to blame China, xyz for being responsible for circulating the virus. No one's interested in the futile news being broadcasted in the media, either speak with proof or stay shut.

[mzltest]

It's not a blame game among Governments presently.  Last I saw the head lines I battle to see anything on "where Covid-19 started".  Topics we see are mostly on vaccines, and how to get them.  I'd say  all efforts of Governments presently are focused on getting rid of the virus.  I don't see big articles about blaming any one.  Governments are presently fighting one another for access to vaccines - I guess the investigations will catch head lines once Covid 19 is under control again.

That's true.I recently saw a review which saying "China and the U.S. are competing the vaccine developing speed though not widely reported" - this looks interesting.
It is undoubtful that the two countries are on a race - but why they compete on the vaccine?
Case zero reported in Wuhan and actually after sometime there isn't too much attention on this.But if you ever noticed that the governor of Wuhan was dismissed for not applying measures on time,you may found that the news is under control.Media is under pressure.
Okay.Just days before,in my state,some verfied media accounts on GifShow(similar to Tiktok) uploaded videos describing new cases,but just after a day you will found the previous videos were deleted.No reason provided until 3 days later the government says the total number of new cases of that day is wrong.

There will be investigation,but at least citizens like you and me never knows the TRUE result.

[fChk]

2. I can see your point on this; however, look at long term effects over generations. While we're preserving the lives of people unable to fight off serious ailments with their own autoimmune response, we're also reproducing people incapable of fighting off serious ailments with their own autoimmune response. Over time and generations this creates a larger portion of the population entirely dependent on medical science to live - weak, sickly, human beings incapable of taking care of themselves. I believe we, as a species, deserve better. Yes, you saved a life with that antibiotic. Next generation, you will need to save 4 lives... then 16, 64, etc. Until there are so many humans with weak immune systems that the medical industry is overwhelmed trying to save them all ie global pandemic.

Unfortunately I can't subscribe to this simplistic way of thinking on serious biological mechanisms; This way of thinking has some eugenic tendencies that have been tried from mid 19th century Europe (when the Darwinian concept of Evolution by the means of Natural Selection re-flourished) till way into the 50s in the US.

To have a sound reasoning on how biological traits may evolve inside human population one has first to be aware of the underlying genetics that's underlying it, which is always highly complex, in that it includes the interplay of hundreds if not thousands of interacting genes that influence not 1 phenotype but many at the same time... Hence why no serious scientists in the BioSciences fields would ever dare have those kind of thoughts; because he knows the complexities of the mechanisms at work and the foolishness of the mere contemplation of those idea from a scientific standpoint.

The point I'm trying to make here is that the genetics of the Immune system (as is the case of any physiological system taken as a whole) is far too complex to fathom as 1 block let alone to project its evolution over time inside human populations given some arbitrary selection pressure...

4. I 100% agree with this. However, I think the proximity to animal life is the tip of the iceberg not the root of the problem. Farmers have lived near animal life since humans have been farming. It's likely that farmers also pick up microbes from animals. However, farmers typically don't live in crowded urban centers, so overwhelming tranmission isn't likely. The real problem (in my opinion) isn't our proximity to wild animal populations, but our proximity to each other: Our cities have become so crowded that we literally have millions of people stacked on top of each other, enabling 1 person on a bus or a train or at work to infect hundreds or more  in a short period of time. The only viable solution I see to the issue of ever-growing and more frequent/deadly infections is the decentralization of the world's urban centers.

Obviously, there is a misunderstanding given that I wasn't specific enough when I mentioned :

4- If we set aside the various conspiracy theories, the current consensus among the scientific communities concerning the SARS-CoV-2 has to do with the ongoing destruction of natural habitats/ecosystems due to the ever-expansion of Urbanization (as a by-product of the widespread adoption of Capitalism) which put human-beings in close contact with once isolated animal life, hence increasing the chances of zoonosis.

... by which I meant the Wild life that once was isolated in its own remote and inaccessible ecosystem but, because of the deforestation and the ever-expanding effort of the Big Capital at scrambling every bit of resource everywhere it can.. Human-beings and the Wild-life are coming in contact once again in many regions of the World, including Africa, China, Brazil etc.. and when they do zoonosis HAPPEN, think of Ebola epidemics for Africa and The SARS-1 and 2 and may be 3/4/5.. in China etc...

That was the New threat I was talking about in 4.

[fitkoh]

Unfortunately I can't subscribe to this simplistic way of thinking on serious biological mechanisms; This way of thinking has some eugenic tendencies that have been tried from mid 19th century Europe (when the Darwinian concept of Evolution by the means of Natural Selection re-flourished) till way into the 50s in the US.

I would argue that simplicity within a complex system is not sufficient reason to declare an idea as unsound or foolish. It IS a valid reason to question such an idea, but NOT to dismiss it. I would also say that it isn't necessarily a misfortune that you can't subscribe to my way of thinking: it's a personal decision; and it makes the world more diverse. I enjoy diversity. Thank you for being you.

I tend to agree with you that this concept bears more than a vague resemblance to eugenics - a practice I would find very distasteful. I prefer to believe that each person has a right and responsibility to direct their own healthcare and development: a basic, fundamental human right that is impossible if/when a vaccine is mandated. What I am against is mandates that limit/destroy personal freedom or basic, fundamental human rights: Social distancing, mask requirements, and vaccines could possibly be very beneficial to the human population in defeating this "pandemic" - but that POSSIBILITY comes with a GUARANTEED loss of liberty. For me, the price is too high.

What I would like to see from the medical community is a better job of identifying persons which NEED a vaccine or other treatment rather than making blanket policies that everyone has to abide by. I cannot see the logic in inoculating an entire population when the recovery rate is over 99%, if for no other reason than the huge cost. I realize that the doctors, hospitals, the pharmaceutical industry stand to make a huge profit when inoculating 100% as opposed to inoculating 10% in a high risk category, but that is not sufficient cause for me to surrender my right to consent to treatment, nor is it justification to artificially alter the immune response of the entire human population.

The point I'm trying to make here is that the genetics of the Immune system (as is the case of any physiological system taken as a whole) is far too complex to fathom as 1 block let alone to project its evolution over time inside human populations given some arbitrary selection pressure...

If your point is valid, how can any serious scientist in the bioscience field assert that a vaccine is the only way we'll ever acquire herd immunity to the current pandemic? A vaccine is only 1 factor in the human immune system. Sure, you can give weight to the argument with statistics, but statistics aren't proof. You can monitor the development of antibodies in a persons bloodstream, but it may not be wise to assume it will affect every person the same way or assume that artificially stimulated antibody development won't have any negative side effects in subsequent generations simply because there is no evidence to support that idea. If it is unreasonable for me to suggest that vaccines may have detrimental long term side effects in the vigor/responsiveness in the human immune system because of lack of evidence and failure to consider other factors I submit it's equally unreasonable to state that vaccines will improve the long term vigor/responsiveness in the human immune system for the same reasons, or to state that a vaccine is needed by everyone. 

While a complex system may have numerous forces acting upon it, seemingly small, insignificant, simple forces can have a profound  effect. The double-slit experiment is one example. While a single metric may not be adequate to form a reasonable projection, I believe it's sufficient to theorize on potential possibilities.

I would also assert that the scientific method has great value as a tool for acquiring knowledge, but it is not perfect. It should not be accepted without question. It has been my experience that doctors and other scientists have a habit of dismissing ideas which are unproven or do not fit into the current scientific paradigm. A lack of proof, in my opinion, is not enough to discredit an idea. At one time it was widely accepted that the earth was the center of the solar system: and Galileo was imprisoned for suggesting otherwise. Theres an inherent weakness/human bias in the scientific method that (generally) persons testing a theory will seek to test and prove ideas which they believe in and to disprove ideas which they don't believe in. What this means to me is  ideas that fit into the current widely accepted scientific model are more likely to be researched/developed/expanded upon than ideas which do not fit into the current widely accepted scientific model are less likely to be learned or given serious consideration, regardless of their factual validity perceived or otherwise.

Obviously, there is a misunderstanding given that I wasn't specific enough when I mentioned :

... by which I meant the Wild life that once was isolated in its own remote and inaccessible ecosystem but, because of the deforestation and the ever-expanding effort of the Big Capital at scrambling every bit of resource everywhere it can.. Human-beings and the Wild-life are coming in contact once again in many regions of the World, including Africa, China, Brazil etc.. and when they do zoonosis HAPPEN, think of Ebola epidemics for Africa and The SARS-1 and 2 and may be 3/4/5.. in China etc...

I think I understand this perfectly; I just don't agree 100%. I tend to believe that the population density is the primary threat. Human beings have been expanding into new ecosystems since before recorded history, but it's only very recently that a point of expansion has been in contact with a dense population area (millions of people in a municipality). I would argue that there is a direct correlation between population density and the frequencies with which pandemic/epidemics occur. While zoonosis is possible any time a person/group explores an undeveloped area with unfamiliar wild-life, I don't believe it would be nearly as likely to reach epidemic proportions if people weren't packed into cities like sardines in a tin.

Fortunately  we are all free to disagree, and personally I appreciate the opportunity to examine alternate perspectives even if I don't happen to agree with them.

[deanhills]

@mzltest This was a great coincidence. Tonight I read in our local newspaper here in South Africa that the WHO Investigation Team is visiting Hunan, China at the moment, investigating the issues I mentioned, i.e. where did the virus originate, and did Hunan Authorities delay the announcement when the virus happened in December 2019/January 2020.

I can't help but wonder what has happened to all of the evidence in a year, and how significant an investigation it can be if there had been so much delay. The market where they say the virus could have originated has been closed for almost a year too.

[mzltest]

@mzltest This was a great coincidence.  Tonight I read in our local newspaper here in South Africa that the WHO Investigation Team is visiting Hunan, China at the moment, investigating the issues I mentioned, i.e. where did the virus originate, and did Hunan Authorities delay the announcement when the virus happened in December 2019/January 2020.

I can't help but wonder what has happened to all of the evidence in a year, and how significant an investigation it can be if there had been so much delay.  The market where they say the virus could have originated has been closed for almost a year too.

Still our local media didn't report this.As I previously mentioned.Virus outbreaks often accompanied with govenor dismisses.I doubt even in-state cases are not transparently reported.

We shall not say "Chinese are easily fooled".We know the almost-accurate situation but we also know that we can not spread it.
Unlike in the US,where states governors are elected,our state governors is assigned.It is like a role in a company so if you want to keep this post sometimes you will need to hide the truth without being discovered by your leader.

[deanhills]

Still our local media didn't report this.As I previously mentioned.Virus outbreaks often accompanied with govenor dismisses.I doubt even in-state cases are not transparently reported.

We shall not say "Chinese are easily fooled".We know the almost-accurate situation but we also know that we can not spread it.
Unlike in the US,where states governors are elected,our state governors is assigned.It is like a role in a company so if you want to keep this post sometimes you will need to hide the truth without being discovered by your leader.

Interesting @mzltest

Here are the articles that appeared in our local press.  I managed to find it in the online version of the newspaper:


https://www.oleantimesherald.com/news/wo...4fb26.html

WHO teams visits Wuhan food market in search of virus clues
By EMILY WANG FUJIYAMA and ZEN SOO Associated Press Jan 31, 2021

WUHAN, China (AP) — A World Health Organization team looking into the origins of the coronavirus pandemic on Sunday visited the seafood market in the Chinese city of Wuhan that was linked to many early infections.

The team members visited the Huanan Seafood Market for about an hour in the afternoon, and one of them flashed a thumbs up sign when reporters asked how the trip was going.

The market was the site of a December 2019 outbreak of the virus. Scientists initially suspected the virus came from wild animals sold in the market. The market has since been largely ruled out but it could provide hints to how the virus spread so widely.

“Very important site visits today — a wholesale market first & Huanan Seafood Market just now," Peter Daszak, a zoologist with the U.S. group EcoHealth Alliance and a member of the WHO team, said in a tweet. “Very informative & critical for our joint teams to understand the epidemiology of COVID as it started to spread at the end of 2019.”

Earlier in the day, the team members were also seen walking through sections of the Baishazhou market — one of the largest wet markets in Wuhan — surrounded by a large entourage of Chinese officials and representatives. The market was the food distribution center for Wuhan during the city's 76-day lockdown last year.

The members, with expertise in veterinary medicine, virology, food safety and epidemiology, have so far visited two hospitals at the center of the early outbreak — Wuhan Jinyintan Hospital and the Hubei Integrated Chinese and Western Medicine Hospital.

On Saturday, they also visited a museum exhibition dedicated to the early history of COVID-19.

The mission has become politically charged, as China seeks to avoid blame for alleged missteps in its early response to the outbreak.

A single visit by scientists is unlikely to confirm the virus’s origins. Pinning down an outbreak’s animal reservoir is typically an exhaustive endeavor that takes years of research including taking animal samples, genetic analysis and epidemiological studies.

One possibility is that a wildlife poacher might have passed the virus to traders who carried it to Wuhan. The Chinese government has promoted theories, with little evidence, that the outbreak might have started with imports of frozen seafood tainted with the virus, a notion roundly rejected by international scientists and agencies.

———

Soo reported from Hong Kong.

https://www.heraldonline.com/news/article248856464.html

WUHAN, CHINA

WHO team visits Wuhan hospital that had early virus patients
BY EMILY WANG FUJIYAMA ASSOCIATED PRESS
JANUARY 29, 2021 08:19 PM



A World Health Organization team visited a hospital on Friday where China says the first COVID-19 patients were treated more than a year ago as part of the experts' long-awaited fact-finding mission on the origins of the coronavirus.

The WHO team members and Chinese officials earlier had their first in-person meetings at a hotel ahead of field visits in and around the central city of Wuhan in the coming days.

“First face to face meeting with our colleagues. Correction: facemask to facemask given the medical restrictions," Dutch virologist Marion Koopmans tweeted in the morning.

She said they were discussing their program of visits and Chinese team leader “prof. Wannian" was joking about some technical glitches, an apparent reference to top Chinese epidemiologist Liang Wannian, who has been a leader of China’s response team.

“Nice to see our colleagues after lengthy Zoom meetings,” Koopman tweeted. The visiting researchers held video meetings during 14 days of quarantine after their arrival in China. They came out of quarantine on Thursday.